Focusing Obsessively on the Pitching Process with PitchBook’s Jacob Robbins

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I’m Eric Chemi and this is Politely Pushy. Welcome back to Politely Pushy, I’m your host as always Eric Chemi, today we are rejoined by Jacob Robbins still at PitchBook still reporting on venture capital and technology, but we had such a great response to when you came on not

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that long ago and and people wanted to know tell me more right tell me how I can how I can get involved in doing stories with you tell me more about what you’re with the election there was a lot of feedback that we got we said okay if you would be so kind as to come back and

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spend more time with us today and then here you are so Jacob thanks for joining me on the show again Eric I’m so delighted to be back I really appreciate the opportunity and before we really dive in I hope it’s okay if I ask you a question I’ve been thinking about this

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what’s your favorite fall activity we’re in the fall season oh fall activity oh my gosh um I have never thought of fall activity because I know they have fall activities but I never thought about like my favorite one that’s a great question you know there’s like the

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pumpkins and the apples but every time I go outside like oh there’s bugs you there’s bugs I’m getting dirty so I don’t know I grew up in the I grew up in the Northeast I grew up in Western Massachusetts specifically and so for me uh we we call these the folks who come

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to visit us just to look at the changing of the colors of the leaves leaf peepers I would consider myself a leaf peeping pro uh and so I just love the just going and seeing the the changing of the leaves I love a good pumpkin patch um but think on it because I would like to

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know you know what’s funny two things my wife was just telling me this past weekend about the phrase leaf peepers and I had never heard that phrase and she said I don’t understand why it’s called peeping because peeping suggests you’re quickly looking right you’re

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quickly looking and looking away but in fact it’s more like you’re staring at the thing you’re spending hours looking at it so so she wondered why peeping is the word that we use well it’s interesting because I I’ve had that same thought and the way I always kind of

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thought of it was yes you can sort of be in nature and see the same thing but if you there’s lots of folks uh that’ll come and they’ll go on these long drives and down these like rural roads and like I guess you could say right because you’re not looking at the same leaf for

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a long time that’s kind of like peeping right like you’re just taking each peaf gets a peep yes exactly I if we can quantify it I think each leaf does get a peep so you know I’m sure I’m sure folks will write in if we’ve gotten this wrong but um that’s that was one of the things

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I used to love doing you know what’s funny because I grew up in Los Angeles so we didn’t have much of a fall it was just dry all the time it was warm all the time like I wore t-shirts in December right so so maybe I just didn’t grow up with that sense of what fall

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meant fall just meant another month on the calendar my birthday was in February but February was never cold in California Eric when’s your birthday the 24th of Feb I’m the 25th oh there you go really close I knew we had I knew we had a connection yeah yeah we had a

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connection there we go there that’s what it is but but obviously it must have been freezing cold like when your birthday happened it was freezing cold when my birthday happened it was totally fine yeah so so if anyone is still listening three minutes in we’ve weeded out we’ve weeded

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out the soft guests the the soft listeners they’re gone so now we’ll get into okay people said Okay I I love what Jacob’s doing a lot you know people we talk to how do I get involved with his stories how do I become part of his story how does he think about working

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with with companies and with you know with PR people and Communications folks and corporate Executives what’s your process what are some likes dislikes so let me let me start off by saying this I think that the biggest mistake I often see folks make

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and it’s very it’s very apparent to me and maybe this is just a time thing I don’t know but I see so many pitches so many inbounds come into me and it’s just so clear to me that this person has never read a story of mine because they don’t know what I focus on and this pitch

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that’s coming across is interesting but it’s not something that’s not even in the realm of what like I cover it’s not in the realm of like what we would cover here at pitchbook and so as as time consuming as it may be I do think it’s really important to know

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what is this person’s angle what are the kinds of things that they’ve done in the past and how can I Envision my client fitting into like one of these stories so like for example I did a story about AI reasoning um like OpenAI had done had released their new advanced

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reasoning model and I spoke to a couple of folks ADV Venture firms just about what what it would mean and what this new wave of compute um and and models would do and if if you’re a PR person reading that story I think the most helpful thing you can do is Imagine

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could my client fit in here could I swap this person in and and look the the world moves fast and uh everybody has strong demands and maybe that’s an unreasonable ask but like I know that the best pitches I’ve gotten are the ones that are very clearly informed

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by like my background and the things that I’m looking at which just to remind viewers uh is um I’m looking at understanding the private markets way more um than just what’s on the surface I want to understand what investors are thinking about how they’re reacting to

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news where the lucrative opportunities are and where where are things that where are opportunities and maybe new developments that are not getting a lot of attention or like conversely like what’s going on in the market um that’s not getting a lot of attention that maybe people

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are worried about or have concerns about I want to really understand the happenings uh the happenings and going on of like the investor world right and so like if you’re pitching me on like talking to certain experts that aren’t aren’t related to venture firms like you just

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have to look at my reporting I I think in my entire like not even just here at PitchBook in my entire career thus far I think I’ve maybe spoken to like two Consultants from like Deloitte or something like that so like which is not not a bad thing it’s just not something that I do so I think

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the the best piece of advice the first best piece of advice I could give to people who want to work with me and just want to work with journalists more specifically is like understand who it is you’re pitching to and just because somebody covers like they’re a private

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Market reporter a venture capital reporter it doesn’t mean that I’m going to cover everything in venture capital or the private markets right like I I cover a very specific area with a very specific focus that’s the first thing I think the second thing is

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like working really hard to cultivate a dialogue with journalists like it is not I think there’s sometimes this mentality of like us against them and like oh you know like it’s it’s this give and take this push and pull like it does not have to be that way some of the best stories

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I’ve done have been the products of working with really great PR folks who like maybe the the first request I made and what they came back to me with was not what I was looking for right but instead of just being like all you know grumbly and saying oh well that’s that like I’ve

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worked with them and I’ve said well actually I’m looking for this thing can you connect me with this person or like can you go back to them and ask them about this like that’s that’s what’s really helpful is is having this dialogue it’s not it doesn’t have to be this

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adversarial relationship right um You you want to cultivate those relationships uh because the other thing too is is that like at the end of the day like it’s your reputation you know your name is everything and you want to be the person that that folks want to

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work with like when when they have a story come across uh with one of their clients like you want to be their first or second call um I’m okay being the third call but I want to be at least within that that that tier you know um I hope that that’s helpful I can

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definitely dive into specifics but you know I’ll just I’ll leave it I’ll end on this note which is the founders and investors I talk to every day and this is going to sound cliche but it’s the truth the most successful ones are the ones that they they always

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talk about focusing obsessively on the needs of their customers right so think about like you can think you can apply that to everything else in life if you’re a PR person like Focus obsessively on the needs of your client and remember that journalists are also

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your client and so like what are the needs that I have like understanding that looking at my stories looking at other people’s stories taking a a a a whole uh totality view of everything that’s going on I think that that’s really the best way forward um but I’m

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happy to dive into more specifics Eric want to hear some of the specifics I I want to hear the specifics my one question is because I would get the same thing when I in my reporter inbox I would get all these pitches that and and I’m making even a no journalist are your clan I like that

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um you would get these pitches and it’s like I don’t cover leaf peeping for example right like I don’t know why I’m getting a pitch from the tourism board of such and such or some startup that’s going to help you identify leaves or whatever it is they like I don’t cover

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that so I I get what you’re saying but I think a lot of these firms are just putting people on an email list blasting it out and it’s like we got 300 journalists blasting it out maybe two of them will pick it up but then it just pisses everybody off because it’s like I

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don’t even cover any of this stuff Eric I used to get these two recurring emails the first was uh this woman who kept asking me about uh to to cover uh like GLP1 drugs you know like Ozempic and Mounjaro and stuff like clinical trials and I was like that’s you just very clearly don’t

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know like what I do and I I had emailed them and I said like please stop please stop messaging me and they just kept messaging me um which I think is like hilarious and I said like like do you is there something that you know that I don’t know like that you know like

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what’s going on here um and the second one I’ll give this person credit it was definitely just added on a list uh but this PR person would send me emails and they all like cat themed and she would just go crazy absolutely nuts with the cat analogies um like I am like like how

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like I’m I’m purring to meet you and stuff like it was a little wild um but look uh I think that is one way to do things is adding people to lists and seeing who bites I actually think the and maybe I’m wrong but and if I’m wrong you know I hopefully I’ll be corrected but like the

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vast majority of PR at least as it seems to me is not these people uh mass blasting uh journalists it’s like just people trying to work in the best interest of their client and they have a very specific Focus whether or not that’s tech or like public affairs or

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whatever and they’re just trying to find the best way to get somebody to bite and I think that but I think sometimes their approaches are the same which is like I’m gonna just try this one one wide approach and just throw it out there and see what sticks and I think

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that that works sometimes but if you really want to get a good story that checks all the boxes that that really highlights the interesting work that your client is doing that also helps the journalist tell a a unique story I think it demands that you spend a little extra

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time going going the doing your homework understanding the work that that person’s doing and trying to make it fit into like their their overall focus area that’s just what I think but maybe that’s demanding too much I don’t know but um that’s what I would usually better results require

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more effort right so I think oh 100% you can spray and pray 300 people or you can spend time and figure out what each person does and then maybe you only send send to 20 people but you really know what they do and and all of a sudden if you can get

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three out of 20 people to bite instead of two out of 300 maybe that’s a better outcome actually right I will say this I haven’t been doing this when I say doing this I mean journalism for really in the grand scheme of things all that long but I’ve worked with some really wonderful

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folks and I don’t think think I’ve ever had one person do a story that came from one of those Mass blast email things you know um and and and to be clear like when I’m saying Mass blast um for folks that are maybe uninitiated like there are emails that you get that are like

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press releases that okay like yeah that’s helpful like I’d like to know what’s going on when it happens but there’s some folks that just like you get added to a list and it’s like they have some sort of like stick that they do where it’s like th like this is my

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client and like are you interested in like understanding more about like luxury goods and venture capital it’s like I’ve never covered luxury goods I would like to I mean I would like luxury goods but I’m not gonna it’s not my my my area so I just think that

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um the the the more effort you can put into it the more focus that you can have I I really do think the better and that goes for journalists too like when I’m writing a story if I’m sending out outreaches to folks like the the the ones that have been the most successful

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have been like the ones that I’ve tailored each individual outreach to that is like I’m really interested in your work that you’ve done with this startup or what you said about this thing excuse me and I think people are much more receptive to that if it’s canned I do think people

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pick up on that and they do they’ll very quickly recognize that this person has maybe not put in that effort and you want to be somebody that when when uh when they open up that email they’re like okay I know this is going to be good or I know there’s a real

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opportunity here you know what gets me is a lot of companies that we deal with they they want to see the pitch first and they tinker and tweak the pitch that then gets blasted out and I keep saying them no no no like I’m going to just send a note individually to a person and

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say here’s what the story is but if we’re going to tweak this pitch as if it’s a press release and then blast it to 300 people it’s going to look canned it’s not going to be customized to what Jacob wants or what Eric wants or what someone else wants and it’s just going

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to look like corporate speak and that’s just immediately going to be a thumbs down that’s a delete you know it’s remarkable to me because if you look at the press releases that go out that I’m I’m I’m I’m pretty sure right that companies have some input maybe some companies

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write them themselves but like the ones that use PR firms they’ll include all these figures and things that are showcasing their technology um if you look at the stories that come from those how many of those figures actually make it into the story you know how many of

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these notes that these companies are giving make it into the story like I’m not saying that the achievements that the company has made are not important right like they are important and and and they’re interesting and kudos to them for making big improvements but

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like the the realm that we operate in and I say we I mean journalists in this this field of news right it’s less about wanting to act as a promoter to somebody right and more about getting to the facts and how you’re fitting into this broader bigger story and so if you’re

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just if you’re adding an all of this input that like is not is very clearly like nobody’s picking up on then I I think it’s time to save yourself the effort or to take a different approach like you know to instead look at what other people are talking about and figure out how you can

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make that be a part of uh the story how you how you get into it and also I mean there are times where you want to make that conversation you want to be the conversation starter but I’ll tell you this like being the conversation starter doesn’t happen by telling me about you

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know like the the this these numbers and figures that I think most people in the general audience are not going to find interesting or make it into a journalistic story you know I agree what you know some questions I get that I be curious your take on it when people say

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what’s the best day of the week or the best time of the day to send you a pitch I always laugh at that one oh that’s a really good one um oh wow well let me start off first by saying I it’s not like buying flight where there’s like a where there’s a good time you know and I I even think

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that’s been disproven right I okay I’ll say this I’m definitely less receptive to a pitch on a Friday but I also feel like most people are kind of starting to check out on a Friday so don’t send a pitch on a Friday um I think anytime during normal business hours now I work

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on the west coast so I’m used to waking up and I have stuff in my emails and I’m like okay that I get that um if you send me something outside of working hours um and and on the especially on the West coast if it’s like after 5 um that’s not good for you because you’re working past

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your normal hours but it’s not it’s not something that I’m going to really look at and it’s going to get clogged and lost in my inbox so that’s the first thing is know when the working hours are tailor it that way um I think for me and I could just speak to my process I’m

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beginning my story generation like for next week at the end of the at the end of the week the preceding week so like I feel like the best days to pitch me are on like Wednesday and Thursday as I’m starting to look ahead um that doesn’t mean I won’t not look at

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something on Monday or Tuesday but like Wednesday and Thursday I feel like are like the best the most perfect best spots Friday kind of already checked out a little bit but also by then it’s kind of too late because I’ve already figured out what I’m going to be writing about

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for next week that’s just the nature of the publication that I work at where we’re we’re doing more like second day analysis or like feature pieces um but some folks it’s like every day they’re they’re they’re writing a like two or three articles so like that sort of generation is

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happening much quicker so that’s just me personally yeah yeah know I I I totally get it um do you ever want anyone to call you never no don’t call no I’m sorry there was the I I did get one call once and this person called me twice oh no and once is bad twice is

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just like oh I’m gonna call the cops yeah I know I I and and I I just I want to be nice but I’m also like please don’t call me you know I mean I I I just feel like number one the way my mind works I am going to almost forget everything you’ve told me as soon as we

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hang up the phone like I need to have it in writing so I can go back to it and reference it I also want to have that record so that I can go to it and know if you’re giving me a figure or something that um I I can I can keep referencing it um but no I please don’t

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call me I just think that that’s that’s doing the absolute most um I will but but I will say this I will call a PR person if they send me something that I think is really interesting and I want to talk to them I want to try and get uh an interview or something I’ll do that right away um

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I’ll send an email if I don’t hear back within like 30 minutes then I’ll put in a call um so I don’t know if that’s if the there is I have a trading trading desk job that’s how I want to operate send me an email with your sales pitches in terms of you know what what

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markets you’re making and I’ll call you if I want to make that trade but the I never wanted the inv don’t call me because that putting a work on me but then if I have to write you an email then that takes up a lot of my time but if I can read emails quickly and then

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call you when I want that’s the most efficient for me so I totally get it well and Eric I also feel like the world that we live in now with spam calls and political outreaches and stuff like that I if I see a number that I don’t know like nine times out of 10 I’m going to

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send it to voicemail so I actually also feel like it’s a waste of your time to do that as well and if you leave me a voicemail okay but I’m also probably not going to call you back I’m I I do apologize about that no I no I think I think these are the things that we all

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know and we try to tell companies but then they don’t listen sometimes so it’s just like look look just Jacob is just telling you do you block people because I I would just block entire domain names of firms coms firms companies like if I got if I just felt this is off topic or

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kind of spammy I just go into my Outlook and just add a rule just block this entire domain no one from this firm can ever email me again there so I’ve done that I I I talked before about the one time I did that where this person kept sending me stuff about

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weight loss drugs that like not my topic area I’m a little interested but not something I’m going to write about really I did block them and I’ll I’ll usually ask to be removed from a list and if the person doesn’t remove me um then I’ll I’ll add them to my block I will say

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this there are people that I have worked with in the past that I if I see them come into my inbox or it’s their firm I’m gonna I’m gonna take a second a sort of like a hard think about whether or not I want to work with that person again I’ve had some not great

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experiences where I feel like people have not been honest about something or what’s an example let’s dig into the honesty one real quick what’s a specific on that I think that and this is just my feeling if you are sending me something that’s under

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embargo you’re sending it out to to everybody to everybody and it’s under this embargo if you’ve given somebody else an exclusive embargo so that they can break the story before everybody else I think you should say that I really do um and I also just don’t think that’s like a best

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practice like okay well this person’s better than you so they’re going to get it before you do but I still want this story to come out like I still want to get all this coverage I get it you’re trying to get coverage for your client but you have to look at it from our

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perspective too like we want to add value to our readers and if it’s looking like somebody else is getting preferential treatment like that’s that’s just not that’s not something that is it sort of like hey we sent this embargo and we want you to do this at

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10:00 a.m. but then some other guy knocks it out at 9:50 is it that kind of thing or 9:30 or 9:00 like oh well I’ve had I mean what’s your example my example was I had it where everybody else’s story went live at like 9:00 and somebody else got it and it went live at like

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6:37 okay okay and and I I just feel like um same story no new information well and there was there was information that they had that nobody else had and I think that that’s like at that point you’ve given somebody an exclusive and you have and you’ve just let everybody

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else kind of had like the second pickings and I think that’s a really bad etiquette I really do and I did you even run your story at 9:00 had you seen it by the time it was 9:00 or you didn’t know at the time we didn’t know and by the time it came out like the story had

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been written and it had been scheduled in our like content management system and so like it it creates a problem because like our my editor is like what happened like did they break the embargo or like did like did you did you mess something up um and it’s also like why

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do they have information that we don’t have I think that if you know you are the only obligation you have is to your client but like I said before if you’re not treating journalists like your client as well and you’re just thinking about like what’s in the best

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interest of like the the company that I’m working for I think that ultimately you’ll do you’ll do your your the company a disservice because like journalists want to work with you and they they want to pick up on what your on the stories that you have but like if

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you burn that Goodwill or you’re not honest about like this person has we’re giving this person in the exclusive before or we given them exclusive information I think that that’s I think that’s just poor form and and I’m not saying don’t do that I’m just saying be

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honest about it you know just say that that this person has it before everybody else so that we know so that like I don’t come into work and my editors like what the heck like did like do we need to hit publish now like did the embargo break you know but it’s tricky because I I I get

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it because they can pull that trick with you once and then now you won’t trust them at going forward they if they said hey someone else has it before you then you might say well then I’m probably not going to run it at all right so I can see why they they don’t say that but if

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I said to you hey you know this other guy has it before you you would just say okay I’m not gonna run it then I so that I I hear what you’re saying that that is partially true I think we would be less inclined to run it however if it’s like a mega round for a company and it’s

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indicative of a bigger trend like I still want to write about that I still want to be in that conversation you know like it’s not it’s not an immediate pass and I would I would I I much prefer that level of honesty and I much prefer like you thinking about us to say hey we

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think that you still should cover this and that your readers would get value out of this and that you can also add value to this story um like I think that that’s that’s still okay you know um but if you do that once then I I I find it like it’s really hard for me to want to

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work with you again you know I agree especially especially if it’s like in like you withheld information that I think like okay the Embargo a little upsetting but like somebody else gets it before you whatever but like you’ve given them exclusive information that

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nobody else got I feel like that’s kind of like ouch you know was that like that that that’s you making a judgment about me and also the other folks who got it before like that got it after the fact too you know but maybe maybe I’m too sensitive I don’t know Eric we’re both

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Pisces you know yeah ex exactly no I I would I’m very sensitive to things like that I I would have a whole set of bad reactions for how I would be dealing with that so I shouldn’t share them on the podcast um so before we go I know you want to talk about the election a little

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bit what are you seeing I know it’s coming up soon from the AI VC point of view like what what are the conversations you’re having behind the scenes obviously we’ve seen the shift with you know what Andreessen Horowitz has done what Elon Musk has done like tech

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has really inserted themselves into this election but what’s your perspective here so I think uh number one I’m gonna gently remind folks um remember to make a plan to vote uh doesn’t you vote vote vote um voting is the most important way to have your voice heard uh and it’s

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it’s one of the most important things you can do so please please please make a plan to vote look I think I I’m hearing a lot of uncertainty about what the results will mean um from a regulatory perspective from a technologist perspective like how is AI

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going to be regulated how is crypto going to be regulated Donald, former president Trump is really making a big play for uh for crypto and those that subset of voters um uh Vice President Harris is kind of changing her tune on this so there’s a lot of

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uncertainty um especially as well because like you have the whole Lena Khan equation people like JD Vance saying that they actually really like Lena Khan and so it’s like like what that’s kind of like out there and a little different coming from like the

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the right um so I think there’s this feeling that that you know for better or worse it’s like going on across the country which is like we just don’t know what this is all going to mean we don’t know what’s going to happen but like from an AI perspective I will say this Eric the

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most interesting thing to me is that there is no interesting thing happening and what I mean by that is this is really the first election where you can have really credible deep fakes going out um that can get mass circulation really quickly and what’s staggering to me is

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that like we’re just not really hearing about it we’re not really seeing it it does not mean that it’s not going on and I think that’s the more interesting slash maybe frightening thing right is that like microt targeting voters is nothing new it’s been going on for a

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really long time it got a lot more attention in 2016 with like social media being able to like really really fine-tune certain ads to certain groups of people but like the the ability for AI to create really credible images and things um that uh can confuse folks like we’re

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just not really hearing about that doesn’t mean it’s not happening it could be happening on a large scale but really really small we may not hear about it till like after the election depending on what the outcome is and like this same thing happened in 2016 right with

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like the concerted disinformation campaign on social media right like we didn’t really fully grasp that until like months after the fact so I I’m really interested in understanding a little bit more about what’s going on there um there are a lot of really

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really great groups working tireless tirelessly to uh taking deep fakes to spread the news that this is fake and information that are doing open analysis that are really um just putting in lots of money and energy to like really securing uh the information Integrity of our election um

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but as we get closer and especially after the election where by all metrics like this is this prob this is going to be a close election is what it what it’s what uh all the information is telling us like how has AI created misinformation going to factor into that who knows I

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mean I guess it can’t be so brash because earlier this year when President Biden was running for reelection you know there was the whole robo-call fake voice of him during the New Hampshire primary and that was like quickly dispelled right so like maybe it’s going

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on and we just don’t know about it because if it were to bubble above the surface we could very quickly say well that’s not real I mean like this is not to say it’s not happening like Elon Musk is posting pictures on on Twitter on on X formly known as Twitter you know of

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images and videos of like doctor uh things of like vice president Harris and things but like I think if if if we could do a a deeper dive into like what’s going on under that surface that would be really interesting to me you know um I could go on about this for a long time I’ll just

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say this last thing which is both of both major party candidates have not really spent a lot of time talking about AI regulation I just did a whole group of stories and I’ll do I’m doing another one down the line about what happened in California with

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SB1047 and uh which was this proposed AI safety bill that had a lot of backing from intellectuals and some large Lang model makers and had a lot of opposition from people like in Andreessen Horowitz and Nancy Pelosi like it’s very true like politics does make for strange bedfellas it

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passed and then it got vetoed right and I think what’s interesting there is that it does provide us this interesting sort of like window into what air regulation could look like it’s the first attempt it didn’t really go anywhere but like it’s the start of a conversation and so

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the way that politics and Technology are going now what that conversation will be like going forward and how this the outcome of this election is going to change the change the regulatory schema of things I think will be really interesting right like

35:49

maybe if AI plays some role like will one side want more regulation than the other maybe you know that with social media but that didn’t really go any where so I don’t know I’m very I’m I’m a huge political junkie I’m very excited to see what happens very very excited I

36:06

like what you said the interesting thing is that there’s no interesting thing yet uh I added the yet but I I liked how you summarize that I I just want to say one last thing which is just an observation which I hope is okay that I make and if you need it’s okay you’re the

36:22

guest I think like I’m just seeing a lot of interesting coverage about like vice president Harris really um not giving a lot of interviews not doing a lot of press um and and same with uh former president Trump I think what this election’s really highlighting right and

36:42

I just have to keep saying this over and over again it’s it’s obvious but like the ways in which we are getting our news totally different than how it’s ever been in the past right like I love 60 Minutes um but I think you’d be really unfortunately hardpressed to find

36:57

folks my age uh that Watch 60 Minutes religiously you know I used to watch it every Sunday as a kid at home family and and now you don’t watch it at all right so football’s off as soon as football’s off I’m like I’m done I’m turning CBS off I think it’s really telling that um

37:15

I think they still do this but you can the the episodes of 60 Minutes they release in podcast form that you can listen to right like you you and it’s the exact same show it’s just an audio format right like the ways in which we’re consuming our news completely

37:32

different and like maybe this is like the podcast election right like it’s very clear that uh both sides see this as a a gateway to reach uh voters uh former president Trump has been doing this for a really long time going talking to folks like Dave Ramsey you

37:52

know um and obviously like you know vice president Harris getting a lot of attention for going on Alex Cooper’s podcast but like you know there has to be a recognition from journalists that the way that people access information is changing and you have to be just as

38:09

nimble right like you have to be building up your your brand I I know that that’s kind of a cringey term but it’s the truth you know you have to be building up your brand you have to be going to where people are are consuming their information like wanting to do

38:22

podcasts wanting to you know constantly changing the format right um because that’s how you ultimately can tell the stories that people really care about and matter and that’s how you’ll reach more people. Thank you to my guest and thanks

38:43

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