As part of a comprehensive content strategy, contributed content, such as bylines or op-eds, is a powerful tool that builds credibility and carves out a space for your voice within your industry.
In this episode of Politely Pushy, Bospar Chief Content Officer Paula Bernier and Content Director Joann Whitcher join Eric Chemi to analyze the effectiveness of storytelling in content marketing and contributed content.
Tune in as they share how businesses can create compelling narratives to engage their audience.
Click to read transcript
00:00:09.519 Today we are
00:00:11.519 talking all about content the written
00:00:13.840 word and what that means for so many
00:00:15.759 companies who are trying to get their
00:00:17.199 message out there without it being so
00:00:19.600 salesy without it seeming so much of an
00:00:21.840 obvious advertisement how do they use
00:00:24.240 the right form of writing in all its
00:00:26.560 functions how do they use content to get
00:00:28.560 their message out there in a way that’s
00:00:30.000 actually going to drive sales and
00:00:31.519 revenues and brand equity across their
00:00:33.360 stakeholders so today we’re joined by
00:00:35.280 two of our crack staff here at Bospar
00:00:37.680 paul Bener Joanne Witcher who I think
00:00:40.000 you two are the most experienced content
00:00:42.160 writers here at the company so So I feel
00:00:44.719 very overwhelmed because you two are
00:00:46.399 much smarter than I am you actually
00:00:48.239 write for a living you have to
00:00:49.440 understand the technology for a living
00:00:51.280 you don’t just BS talk about it like I
00:00:53.680 do so so I’m I’m very thrilled to have
00:00:55.920 you on but I’m a little nervous that
00:00:57.440 that I’m I’m not a heavyweight enough to
00:00:59.440 be here in this room so thank you both
00:01:01.120 for joining me and uh and I’m going to
00:01:03.760 start I’ll start with Paula what is the
00:01:06.360 biggest mistake that you see from
00:01:08.880 clients when they when they come to you
00:01:11.280 and say “Okay you know I’m hiring you
00:01:13.040 for content strategy but now do X.” And
00:01:15.600 X is usually just something that’s not
00:01:17.439 going to work for them what is the the
00:01:18.960 first thing you have to tell them about
00:01:20.240 yeah that’s not going to work well I
00:01:22.400 think that uh one of the things is you
00:01:24.640 know it’s very easy to you know be very
00:01:27.600 focused on promoting your company
00:01:29.600 promoting your product but uh really to
00:01:32.799 have uh contributed content that is
00:01:35.920 interesting to media interesting to
00:01:39.439 readers and really sets you up as a true
00:01:42.159 uh thought leader you need to really
00:01:43.840 look beyond uh you know your own product
00:01:47.200 and company and think about the larger
00:01:49.600 context what are the problems that
00:01:51.840 people are facing uh you know how can
00:01:55.600 you you use your expertise to help them
00:01:59.040 uh you know solve these problems
00:02:00.880 alleviate these pain points and really
00:02:03.280 look at in the larger context of you
00:02:06.159 know the technology but also like what
00:02:08.878 do I need to do within my own
00:02:10.800 organization to get the buy in to get
00:02:13.040 the alignment what question should they
00:02:15.760 be asking that kind of thing
00:02:18.959 joy go ahead yeah I was going to say one
00:02:20.959 of the things that um we find a lot of
00:02:23.440 clients are they’re afraid of making any
00:02:26.720 kind of bold statements or coming off as
00:02:30.360 controversial and of course you don’t
00:02:32.319 want to be you don’t want to be
00:02:33.519 offensive but you know I think showing
00:02:36.319 that you’re taking a stand is very very
00:02:39.680 interesting and intriguing both to your
00:02:41.760 readers and to the media
00:02:44.879 you said you know of course you don’t
00:02:46.560 want to be offensive do you ever run
00:02:48.080 into situations where where a company
00:02:50.480 would be offensive
00:02:55.239 um well sometimes they might want to
00:02:59.360 denigrate a competitor in a way that you
00:03:02.080 know comes off as
00:03:03.959 unprofessional so that would be
00:03:06.159 something we would watch out for but
00:03:07.920 that that does rarely happen is that a
00:03:11.120 successful strategy oh go ahead Paul go
00:03:12.959 ahead i will say that um you know when a
00:03:15.840 competitor especially if it’s a bigger
00:03:17.760 competitor you know was talking about
00:03:20.000 you on social media for example and this
00:03:22.720 is exactly what happened with one of our
00:03:24.959 clients um IBM was kind of talking in a
00:03:29.280 veiled way about this uh client and we
00:03:32.000 said gosh they’re talking about you
00:03:34.720 that’s kind of interesting that a big
00:03:36.239 company would be uh talking about a an
00:03:39.480 upstart and we use that to uh you know
00:03:43.840 kind of say hey this big you know
00:03:46.640 Goliath is talking about us and uh it
00:03:50.480 sort of in a way validated our client
00:03:53.280 that such a big competitor would be so
00:03:56.159 worried about them that they really have
00:03:58.080 something to offer so we leveraged that
00:04:01.040 uh not as much through contributed
00:04:03.280 content but uh through social media and
00:04:05.680 it was a big success
00:04:08.000 there’s so much getting published every
00:04:10.000 day right we know that you can’t keep up
00:04:11.760 with it so what separates a contributed
00:04:15.120 article that gets published that’s going
00:04:16.798 to be widely shared from so many that
00:04:19.358 fade into obscurity think about how many
00:04:21.440 headlines we look at we don’t even we
00:04:23.120 don’t even click on the article right
00:04:24.639 let alone the headlines we don’t even
00:04:25.919 see and everyone’s pushing this out
00:04:28.360 there what do they need to do to
00:04:30.400 actually resonate
00:04:34.479 uh well I think that commentary that’s
00:04:36.800 both of the moment and new uh editors
00:04:40.080 and readers in general tend to like
00:04:42.000 contributed articles that relate to the
00:04:43.919 news of the day and bring something new
00:04:46.880 and sometimes controversial to the
00:04:49.360 conversation a piece opinion pieces that
00:04:51.759 run counter to the general consensus but
00:04:54.800 are not like too crazy far out um are
00:04:58.479 often appealing to editors and you know
00:05:01.680 really get conversations going get
00:05:03.840 people commenting on those articles um
00:05:06.800 also um it’s helpful if um you know some
00:05:10.240 of the viewpoints are validated you
00:05:13.680 supported by data or you know uh
00:05:17.520 supported by some sort of third-party
00:05:19.520 source joanne do you want to add to that
00:05:21.840 yeah I mean we kind of mentioned this
00:05:23.440 before but I think any content creator
00:05:26.000 who’s worth their salt knows that if you
00:05:27.840 if something comes off as promotional
00:05:29.919 chances are it’s not going to get widely
00:05:32.120 shared and as Paula mentioned you know
00:05:35.759 any when you’re sharing your
00:05:37.919 perspectives you want to make sure
00:05:39.280 they’re unique or even counterintuitive
00:05:42.000 they’re timely they’re actionable may
00:05:45.280 maybe they offer a solution to an
00:05:47.039 ongoing issue you know you don’t want to
00:05:49.759 give just generic advice or a
00:05:52.720 perspective that just jumps on the
00:05:54.479 bandwagon of what everyone else is
00:05:56.320 saying without adding something
00:05:58.840 new i I like what you
00:06:01.960 said you want to be able to disagree be
00:06:04.720 a little controversial without being so
00:06:06.639 far out there right finding that balance
00:06:08.639 of hey you’re adding to the conversation
00:06:11.360 you’re adding to what people want to
00:06:13.280 talk about but in a way
00:06:15.160 that’s somewhat believable right like oh
00:06:18.160 I I can disagree but I need to disagree
00:06:19.840 within the frameworks of reality
00:06:22.800 exactly
00:06:25.680 you know before I started working here
00:06:27.759 when I heard content to me content was
00:06:30.479 everything right content was was earn
00:06:32.880 media it was social it was paid media
00:06:35.360 like to me content it’s videos this is
00:06:37.759 content writing is content why is it
00:06:40.080 that when we say the word content now we
00:06:41.919 mean oh no we just mean the written word
00:06:43.600 we mean contributed articles we mean you
00:06:45.680 know ghostwritten pieces we mean these
00:06:48.080 kinds of things as opposed to as opposed
00:06:50.560 to all of it where did that come from
00:06:52.319 because it took me a while to figure
00:06:54.240 that out and I think there’s a lot of
00:06:56.400 prospects and clients that hear the word
00:06:58.479 content and they don’t necessarily know
00:07:00.639 that in a way it has a technical
00:07:03.039 industry jargon that we’re using it for
00:07:04.960 here right well I think content is
00:07:07.199 everything but I think that we make this
00:07:09.280 distinction and talking about
00:07:10.639 contributed content uh it’s an article
00:07:13.680 that publishes under the client’s buy
00:07:15.680 line that we then uh provide as a
00:07:18.800 contributor to a media outlet that also
00:07:21.759 has uh internal reporters um so that’s
00:07:25.440 kind of um how uh it works in my brain
00:07:29.280 but you’re absolutely right and I think
00:07:30.960 that uh integrated uh marketing and PR
00:07:33.440 strategy should include all of those
00:07:35.919 things video content uh social media uh
00:07:40.319 written content and everything else that
00:07:42.880 goes along uh with a successful PR
00:07:46.400 program and and Bosespar delivers all of
00:07:48.479 it and and provides alignment uh between
00:07:51.840 all those different platforms and
00:07:53.440 formats
00:07:55.840 how do you balance something that’s
00:07:57.759 truly authentic thought
00:07:59.879 leadership but you balance it with the
00:08:01.919 company’s brand agenda right so I know
00:08:03.840 so many companies they want to just say
00:08:05.199 “Hey I’m contributing an article about
00:08:07.599 how we’re great but then it reads like
00:08:09.520 an ad.” They go buy an ad right but
00:08:11.440 that’s not a news article that’s not a
00:08:13.280 that’s not a useful piece of contributed
00:08:15.599 content so how do you take out all the
00:08:18.000 overly promotional stuff and weave it in
00:08:20.479 a way that is actually useful to the
00:08:22.080 reader
00:08:24.240 do you want to take that one Joan yeah
00:08:26.000 sure i mean always we’re we’re trying to
00:08:28.720 focus on educating readers offering
00:08:32.279 solutions sharing industry insights
00:08:35.279 about trends i mean there is a way to
00:08:38.399 weave in mention of the company in a n
00:08:42.159 in within a broader context perhaps by
00:08:45.120 highlighting a case study sharing
00:08:47.680 proprietary data like through from a
00:08:49.600 survey or lessons learned but even that
00:08:53.839 I would do sparingly
00:08:56.240 um but always even without mentioning
00:08:58.640 the company name you’re always tying the
00:09:00.880 narrative back to the company’s
00:09:02.240 objectives right and I feel like um also
00:09:05.360 you know naval gaze saying whether
00:09:06.880 you’re having a conversation with
00:09:08.800 somebody or whether you’re you know
00:09:11.360 providing um some materials in in a
00:09:14.800 written format it’s just never
00:09:16.320 attractive or particularly useful um so
00:09:19.839 again true thought leaders look beyond
00:09:21.920 their company’s product services to
00:09:23.760 understand and analyze the broader
00:09:25.920 context and why things are the way they
00:09:28.640 are and and how uh people might pro
00:09:31.680 approach things uh in new and better
00:09:33.839 ways and and they use the experience uh
00:09:36.959 that they’ve gained through their time
00:09:38.480 at their companies and and their uh and
00:09:41.279 the way they’ve developed their products
00:09:42.720 to inform that you know and the whole
00:09:44.959 point of of thought leadership is that
00:09:46.720 you’re trying to build trust with your
00:09:48.680 audience so if if your your if your
00:09:53.040 content is overly promotional there goes
00:09:55.200 the
00:09:56.600 trust i see because that that was going
00:09:58.800 to be my question is is do you see any
00:10:01.839 metrics or ROI or some proof
00:10:04.760 that hey if you’re not promotional
00:10:07.440 enough you’re not going to move eyeballs
00:10:09.760 but you’re actually doing it from a
00:10:10.880 trust measurement that if you’re too
00:10:12.160 promotional then you accomplish nothing
00:10:16.720 is that right Joan yes yes yes well the
00:10:20.240 metrics is al is could be like when you
00:10:22.640 see posts shared on LinkedIn you know
00:10:24.959 you’re not seeing promotional pieces
00:10:26.720 shared on LinkedIn you’re seeing things
00:10:28.560 that add value to the conversation
00:10:32.720 and but does that but do those turn into
00:10:36.320 future sales like does that end up
00:10:38.160 moving the needle for fundamentally what
00:10:40.800 the big picture is of why they brought
00:10:42.240 you want like can you can you accomplish
00:10:44.399 the goals without explicitly telling the
00:10:47.360 audience what you really want to tell
00:10:49.360 them
00:10:50.880 yeah i think when when readers um you
00:10:54.320 know kind of recognize your expertise
00:10:57.200 and your authenticity then they’ll seek
00:10:59.600 you out they’ll seek out the brand right
00:11:02.160 they’ll go to the website so yes we have
00:11:04.480 seen that and they’ll engage they’ll
00:11:08.399 engage with the company uh you know also
00:11:12.160 uh you know companies can use this kind
00:11:14.959 of thought leadership and this guidance
00:11:17.120 highlighting their expertise uh for lead
00:11:20.160 generation and their you know email
00:11:22.320 outreach reach to customers and all that
00:11:24.560 goes back to what Joanne was talking
00:11:26.160 about building trust and and building
00:11:28.640 trust might be with like a prospect uh
00:11:31.839 seeing that you’re out there you’re
00:11:33.200 talking about the issues that they care
00:11:35.279 about so that might enable you to win
00:11:37.440 business but it could also uh you know
00:11:40.320 consultative con content could uh you
00:11:43.519 know help uh a client uh existing client
00:11:47.519 realize that you also have expertise in
00:11:49.839 that other area that they may have not
00:11:51.680 been aware of and you know that might be
00:11:54.240 an opportunity for a tech business to
00:11:57.600 upsell that client on an additional
00:12:00.079 service or product you you mentioned
00:12:03.040 tech clients right so much of what we
00:12:05.040 focus on is technology there’s this huge
00:12:07.440 gap of technical writing and the ability
00:12:11.360 to understand the technology write about
00:12:13.120 the technology but then for a lot of the
00:12:14.880 readers they may not understand the
00:12:16.880 technology and they may never need to
00:12:19.360 understand the technology because
00:12:20.639 they’re the buyer it’s like hey I just
00:12:22.240 need you to solve the problem i don’t
00:12:24.000 need to know how it all works how do
00:12:26.760 you you know from an outsers’s
00:12:29.040 perspective how do you write at a
00:12:30.959 technically high enough level that is
00:12:34.720 going to satisfy both both sides right
00:12:36.880 the the potential reader and the company
00:12:38.720 that you represent who presumably wants
00:12:41.440 the the technical stuff in there because
00:12:43.200 that’s a lot of their secret sauce the
00:12:45.200 their their competitive advantage is the
00:12:47.040 technology
00:12:48.399 i mean you got to know your audience and
00:12:50.639 figure out their level of you know uh
00:12:53.519 where they are in terms of technical
00:12:56.000 knowhow it never hurts to compare
00:12:57.839 complicated technical concepts with
00:13:00.639 things with which the readers are
00:13:02.800 already familiar to aid in understanding
00:13:05.839 um it’s important like to avoid getting
00:13:08.399 lost in the bits and bites of of
00:13:10.399 technology conversation if you’re
00:13:12.000 writing for an engineering journal it
00:13:13.680 might make sense to include a fair
00:13:15.680 amount of technical detail but if it’s
00:13:18.079 for like more of a business audience or
00:13:21.120 you know uh folks that are not as deep
00:13:24.079 in the weeds technology wise um you know
00:13:27.519 you can kind of talk about the
00:13:29.680 technology but in the end it’s all about
00:13:31.680 like what results uh the technology
00:13:34.480 delivers right so uh for most business
00:13:38.000 tech and and sector discipline specific
00:13:40.639 media outlets the best approach might be
00:13:42.720 to like include the most important
00:13:44.800 technical details but then explain how
00:13:47.040 they relate to the broader context like
00:13:50.240 um you know impeding or improving user
00:13:53.120 experiences preventing or driving
00:13:55.279 business growth enabling sca scalability
00:13:57.760 that kind of stuff
00:14:00.160 yeah I definitely agree i mean when
00:14:01.760 you’re writing about technology for
00:14:03.360 businesses the the business doesn’t
00:14:05.600 isn’t really interested in the nuts and
00:14:07.120 bolts of the technology they want to
00:14:09.279 know how it’s going to like drive their
00:14:11.279 business results or make their lives
00:14:13.079 easier right so and as Paula said you
00:14:16.399 want to make you want to use things like
00:14:19.440 analogies or relatable examples avoid
00:14:22.880 industry jargon that they may not be
00:14:24.959 familiar with you know make the tone of
00:14:27.120 the article maybe more conversational
00:14:29.279 less pedantic you know
00:14:31.320 really so that they it’s it’s
00:14:35.560 very to the reader and then you can also
00:14:39.360 think about how you want to structure
00:14:40.720 the content like make sure you know um
00:14:44.399 break it up break it up into smaller
00:14:46.639 digestible sections so that it’s easier
00:14:49.440 to
00:14:51.079 follow and use bullet points visuals
00:14:53.839 that kind of thing do you find there’s a
00:14:56.399 lot of push
00:14:57.639 back between you and and the company
00:14:59.920 that you’re representing in terms of hey
00:15:02.000 I know you want to say all these things
00:15:03.519 but I’m going to suggest that we take
00:15:05.120 all these things out what what’s um a
00:15:07.519 typical editing process like on the back
00:15:09.600 and forth is it they have a draft then
00:15:11.680 you edit or you have the draft and then
00:15:13.519 they give tweaks or what what is typical
00:15:17.440 do you want to take that one Joanne um
00:15:20.320 well I don’t know if there’s a typical
00:15:22.399 process okay what’s the process that you
00:15:25.839 really like and what’s a process you
00:15:27.360 really don’t like if there’s no typical
00:15:29.880 well the the best thing is having great
00:15:33.920 intake so having having a client that is
00:15:38.720 really going to be forthcoming during
00:15:40.880 the discussion and has a vision and
00:15:44.800 really communicates that vision for what
00:15:47.199 they want the piece to be an intake is
00:15:49.040 is you basically sitting there and
00:15:50.320 interviewing them asking them all your
00:15:52.079 questions they tell it to you and then
00:15:53.680 you turn that into an article right
00:15:55.120 sorry yeah i I call it a friendly We’re
00:15:57.600 like friendly
00:15:59.639 reporters we’re not going to do any
00:16:01.440 gotcha moments but we you know we want
00:16:03.360 to understand right so I mean if you
00:16:06.480 start with that you’re in pretty good
00:16:09.800 shape wait I forgot what the question
00:16:12.160 there’s so much there’s so much AI right
00:16:15.040 now right and like I I use it myself for
00:16:18.240 for certain kinds of things asking it
00:16:20.000 questions i use it now to track my my um
00:16:23.839 uh recipe like my food intake i take a
00:16:26.240 picture it tells me “Hey this is how
00:16:27.600 many calories you’re eating just from
00:16:29.279 the photo.” Like it’s crazy and
00:16:30.399 obviously we know what it can do for
00:16:31.560 writing does it scare you because
00:16:34.560 companies think “Oh I don’t need
00:16:36.240 professional content i can just give
00:16:37.839 three bullet points and AI is going to
00:16:39.839 spit out for me some kind of contributed
00:16:42.240 content.” I’m sure you’re having these
00:16:43.920 conversations with prospects
00:16:46.560 well it’s interesting um I uh I think
00:16:50.560 that you know like you said AI enables
00:16:53.440 companies to turn out content at a
00:16:55.519 unprecedented pace but um you know with
00:16:59.199 all the content competing for everyone’s
00:17:01.759 attention it just means that stamping
00:17:03.600 out cookie cutter content uh is not
00:17:06.079 going to be a winning strategy so I
00:17:09.280 think that while AI can help you know
00:17:11.679 authors make their writing stronger if
00:17:13.839 you’re struggling with a headline or
00:17:15.359 what have you um you know that can be
00:17:18.319 really uh useful but um you know having
00:17:22.799 a real point of view and sharing that in
00:17:25.760 point of view in a unique way and maybe
00:17:27.599 with some like personal examples and
00:17:30.080 really bringing your personality to it
00:17:32.799 um you know is really what makes content
00:17:35.039 stand out and and a whereas AI I think
00:17:38.480 is more you know often more very generic
00:17:44.000 yeah I agree with Paula i think you can
00:17:46.240 you can tell most of the time when
00:17:47.679 something is AI generated because it it
00:17:50.000 doesn’t sound like a human wrote it
00:17:52.000 there’s no nuance the the language is
00:17:55.039 very two-dimensional the same language
00:17:57.360 is used over and over again for instance
00:18:00.640 I see the word navigate in a headline
00:18:03.440 and I’m thinking AI now I know that’s
00:18:05.840 probably not true but AI uses the word
00:18:09.000 navigate like constantly but it’s funny
00:18:11.919 because it means people used to use
00:18:14.160 navigate and the AI that’s why and it’s
00:18:16.720 and so they don’t they don’t look to use
00:18:18.559 a different word that means the same
00:18:20.160 thing you know it the AI isn’t using
00:18:22.880 idiomatic expressions or simileies it’s
00:18:25.520 just to me it’s just doesn’t have any
00:18:27.440 depth
00:18:29.440 i mean it’s a great tool but that’s what
00:18:31.360 it is it’s a tool do you two think you
00:18:33.520 can just pick up like you said Joanne if
00:18:36.080 you see an article do you think you
00:18:37.120 could tell right away oh this was an AI
00:18:38.559 article and I have done it i mean I have
00:18:41.120 so you know it’s something I’ve done
00:18:42.880 i’ve read things that have been provided
00:18:46.240 by clients and I’m like this is AI
00:18:49.120 generated oh oh they gave it to you and
00:18:51.120 it was obvious to you that they just had
00:18:52.880 AI right oh that’s funny and then we
00:18:55.360 have no we well we we do and we help
00:18:58.240 them rewrite it we have to you know
00:19:00.640 recraft how much AI are the two of you
00:19:03.679 using in your own work like I know Paula
00:19:05.280 mention help you with a headline for
00:19:06.720 example it could help if your writing is
00:19:08.480 weak and you want to make it stronger
00:19:10.160 would you two even admit to using AI on
00:19:12.240 this on this podcast or if you used it
00:19:14.559 you’re not telling anybody i’ve used it
00:19:16.960 in a limited way um I I do I have been
00:19:20.480 using it lately to help me um you know
00:19:24.080 write really compelling headlines never
00:19:25.919 with navigate in it though um but uh
00:19:29.120 please write in your headlines but don’t
00:19:30.640 use the word navigate
00:19:34.160 um so really that’s that’s how I
00:19:36.559 typically use it i know that uh some
00:19:38.640 folks like to use it uh to generate um
00:19:42.320 outlines for articles i don’t really use
00:19:44.480 it much in that way um it is nice you
00:19:47.840 know sometimes it can um automatically
00:19:51.039 suggest how to tighten up a a sentence
00:19:53.280 or something like that that’s like a
00:19:55.039 nice little capability um things like
00:19:57.840 that uh or even if like you’re before
00:20:00.880 you’re going into an intake call with a
00:20:03.039 client and you know generally what they
00:20:04.880 want to talk about but they don’t have
00:20:07.039 like a real tight bead on what they you
00:20:09.840 know what the exact angle is it’s just
00:20:12.000 helpful to go in and and use a AI tool
00:20:15.280 to say like what are people talking
00:20:17.360 about relating to this issue right now
00:20:20.080 and then you like can talk about that
00:20:22.559 and say hey what do you think about this
00:20:25.120 uh you know this is a a big topic right
00:20:28.320 now and and that can like help inform
00:20:30.799 the questions for those intake calls i
00:20:34.559 see i see that makes sense and then
00:20:36.320 before we go last question for both of
00:20:38.000 you what is an underrated storytelling
00:20:41.320 technique that more brands should be
00:20:43.600 using in their content like we’ve talked
00:20:45.039 about don’t be promotional be a little
00:20:47.200 controversial but not be too crazy uh
00:20:50.080 don’t use AI and say navigate because it
00:20:52.320 has no nuance what is is there an
00:20:53.919 underrated technique that you find that
00:20:56.080 you’re always using that maybe your
00:20:57.520 competitors aren’t or companies don’t
00:20:59.039 realize that they should be doing more
00:21:00.240 of
00:21:03.760 um I think
00:21:07.640 maybe showing vulnerability oh I like
00:21:10.880 that really powerful um you know it’s
00:21:14.240 something that will resonate with
00:21:15.919 readers you’re showing that you know
00:21:17.600 maybe you had a challenge or a failure
00:21:19.600 and how
00:21:20.840 you you know overcame it so I think
00:21:24.240 something like that can be incredibly
00:21:26.159 impactful right for building trust like
00:21:28.480 you were saying earlier the whole point
00:21:29.600 is to build trust if you can admit admit
00:21:31.840 we made a mistake or we tried this it
00:21:33.600 didn’t work or here’s how we learned
00:21:35.280 from a past failure that that certainly
00:21:37.360 right and it’s like humanity right so
00:21:40.480 it’s it becomes very relatable
00:21:43.600 um I think that you know starting with
00:21:45.440 with what’s in the zeitgeist and and
00:21:47.520 then kind of uh drilling down to the
00:21:49.840 message and the advice is is uh
00:21:52.320 frequently uh the way to go but I’m also
00:21:54.799 a big fan of the Wall Street Journal
00:21:56.400 lead uh and of course that technique
00:21:58.559 kind of starts with an antidote note
00:22:00.480 about a specific person or situation and
00:22:03.840 you know and it makes it very personal
00:22:05.760 and then you know uh you can talk about
00:22:08.559 how that’s illustrative of a larger uh
00:22:11.679 trend that you want to approach in the
00:22:13.679 article so you could use that even in
00:22:16.000 contributed content i never thought
00:22:17.200 about that because I think that is
00:22:18.320 certainly a newspaper article kind of
00:22:20.320 thing but I wouldn’t have thought of it
00:22:21.520 as as in this medium as well right if
00:22:24.159 you can get the client you know convince
00:22:26.000 them and and get them to you know plum
00:22:28.640 the depths of their experience that can
00:22:30.640 be an interesting and really compelling
00:22:32.720 approach
00:22:34.280 okay well I like it paula Joan thank you
00:22:36.960 so much i I actually feel like I learned
00:22:38.799 a lot here today just thinking about
00:22:40.080 that i was never a good writer as a kid
00:22:42.159 right so writing was always my my my
00:22:44.000 hardest part so it’s always impressive
00:22:46.159 to talk to people that do this every day
00:22:47.760 full-time and I and I like what you said
00:22:49.200 Paul about sticking with the zeitgeist i
00:22:52.000 know somebody who came into journalism
00:22:54.640 after being a professional athlete right
00:22:56.400 so they they were in a whole different
00:22:57.600 world and what they learned was you need
00:23:00.720 to talk about what everyone else is
00:23:02.320 talking about you can’t just show up
00:23:04.080 here and start talking about something
00:23:06.159 else and try to make that a headline
00:23:08.480 just talk about what’s already a
00:23:09.919 headline and you’ll start to get more
00:23:11.280 buzz that way you’ll start to be part of
00:23:12.799 the conversation like you said so it’s
00:23:14.960 it’s interesting to hear that full
00:23:16.799 circle here but Paula Joan thank you so
00:23:18.799 much appreciate the time today
00:23:21.039 thanks thank
00:23:22.950 [Music]
00:23:24.650 [Applause]
00:23:24.870 [Music]
00:23:27.080 you thank you to my guest and thanks for
00:23:29.760 listening subscribe to get the latest
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00:23:33.280 next time
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